Part 2 - Dinesh D'Souza/ Dan Barker Debates

"innate need to prevent suffering"

Is this indeed human nature? Please resight your sources. This should be good. Because there are pretty crappy human beings on this earth.

As far as solidarity, is this the basis for morality... Because each society comes to different conclusions. Some societies practiced cannibalism, pedophilia, R**e , murder, slavery, theft, etc.

Cooperation within society is open to interpretation of just how that gets done.

your telling me the only reason you are moral is because you have an imaginary god to base it on?
what about human solidarity? what about our innate need to prevent suffering?

"comepletely immoral"

yeah according to what standard? Please I am so curious to know how you can declare if something is immoral when you have nothing to base it on.

"whats that? the eternal afterlife for which you have no evidence? you really dont have a solution to the suffering of the world then do you. your just copping out. "

Christians are commanded to easy the suffering of thee world and in the afterlife....ie feed the poor, visit orphans widows and prinoners...and spread the gospel. Christians are not supposed to be monks. Yes Jesus cared about the suffering here on earth as well as in the afterlife.

To some degree, I also believe that in order for us to know what happiness is, suffering MUST exist.

That's not to say suffering is caused by God, but what I am saying is that looking back on your life, was pain necessary for you to know what makes you happy?

Even if you have had your heart broken or a loved one passed away, these things, I believe are needed to grow and build one's character.

whats that? the eternal afterlife for which you have no evidence? you really dont have a solution to the suffering of the world then do you. your just copping out.
and i thought christians cared about the well being of others. your all completely immoral if you think all the needless suffering in the world is justified.

I would have to say that you must admit that there is no free will if God is the one that makes all the decisions.

Do human beings have free will? I think anyone, theist or atheist, would have to say yes because the contrary would mean there is something controlling us.

That being said, I think that atheists have this idea of a God who intervenes with human activity. To them, the idea of a God who doesn't intervene is not possible.

cont...

To the Christian no. We have an answer for this. I could go into detail but I think Dinesh covers it in his debate with Singer.

What is more important to "God" is our eternal destination instead of our present comfort.

sure it doesnt disprove god, but is it a point in gods favour? obviously no. if you had the chance to prevent the painfull blindness of little children would you prevent it? i think the needless suffering in this world conforms with how the universe should operate without a divine supervisor, if god does exist, i think we can both say he really doesnt care what happens to us.

Spacecowboy95,

Perhaps if you actually understood what Christianity is you may understand the arguments.

Suffering and death is a reality. Whether we hate God for this or not, doesn't disprove that there is a God.

funny how none of you christians marvel and admire the complexity of bacterial worms. they blind little children permanently, did god create them? is that a part of his divine plan? or does it fit perfectly with the idea of a universe without a god?

I believe Hitchens has it right when he says that we are poorly evolved. Our brains cannot grasp the Universe existing and somehow our coming out of it WITHOUT a Creator behind it all. To our ancestors our existence BEGGED to be explained. Our poor intelligence somehow doesn't allow that we are the product of non-intelligent forces. Our only comparison is to observe what mankind has made and then rivet that idea onto our existence, too, thinking that we were made in about the same way.

hyper, I respect and appreciate your considered reply. But I am honestly going to tell you I see no good reason. No evidence of a creation or of any artificial/non-natural design or any supernatural interference or contact. Meanwhile we can easily imagine why primitive fearful man dreamt up these gods. God was once the explanation of thunder and lightning. The Evolution insight teaches us always to look for non-supernatural explanations. Science will eventually explain the Big Bang and the cell.

Such examples are some reasons for belief. However, I understand evolution and the ideas beyind that as well. Some debaters like Dinesh have bridged the gap between evolution and the bible. In other words both can coexist.

My point is to you that people since the beginning of time, from all cultures, have "reasoned" out a god. Science today, can't reason god away either. "god" is out of its reach ATM.

It's just great minds, athiest or thiest, giving their reasonings.

JayeHK,

There is not gonna be evidence to you get this? Science is left out in regards to the absolute proof of a deity.

As far as reasons go....are you gonna honestly telling me that there is not one good reason to support the existence of a deity or creator? From a Christian point of view, the creation itself is evident of a creator. Some scientists (not ver many) look to the complexity of a cell, like a minifactory, and point out the coding of DNA (simiiar to a oomputer)-

hyper, i read your posts and i do agree they're debating unsolved mysteries. that doesn't mean anything goes. Dinesh makes the very bold assertions of religion. Barker just asks for evidence and reasons. I and MichaelDavis have asked you for his evidence and reasons. You just keep replying that we're biased and choosing not to see them. Not good enough. In speculative fields, the sensible approach is ongoing open enquiry, not leaping into supernatural beliefs.

pinoy was asking about voices deep inside. i assure him/her there is no god deep inside a clear head. he also projects his fears onto the physical universe - but for me a lonely planet is unemotional, the reality does not terrify me and make me dream up supernatural sources of happiness. my happiness is anchored in reality.

"voice tells me"

curious what voice are you talking about here?

And JayeHK, it is fair to know how we draw conclusions. Dinesh attempts to defend "his" conclusions. You just don't like his conclusions so you seek out to make him look like a religious nutbag who is twisting logic to his own ends.

Well I disagree. He is an intelligent man who offers his hypothesises just like these other athiest debaters here. They ain't arguing if 2 plus 2 is 5 or something like that. This isn't dealing with absolutes like mathematics or physics.

JayeHK did you not read my post? Both sides are arguing in the dark. When we are discussing the "origin" of the universe for example, everybody is guessing.

theres is a difference. For instance, you may argue we know the earth is flat because we have "evidence". Fine. People who disagree are idiots. fine. However This is a phenomenon within the confines of the universe. Scientific data can explain that.
Science can't explain where the earth came from.

which means dinesh is right now shaking atheist principles...they run out of people who can debate for them..God is on his side

he is selling his ideas execellently than the other camp...Dinesh is the best debator right now especially against athiests and agnostics...

nope, you just not got his points because myabe of your preconcieved bias attitude towards him..he answered questions intillegently!

me too i evolved from my animal ancestor but the difference between you and me is that you think you're living in a lonely planet what a mesirable life you have, me i'm living in a planet where there's sadness and joy.maybe that loneliness comes from within you, a feeling of emptiness and dullness, a life without God is a very lonely life, no hope and joy.God is not looking at me, I'm looking at him.I'm happy a life with the ONe who gives me life.Maybe you had a bad childhood experience..

hyper, surely you agree that its fair (and intelligent) to ask how they draw those conclusions. Can we all further agree that it's also intelligent to approach such questions seeking evidence and reasons? If so, can you really then conclude that both sides are speculating, guessing and concluding on equal terms? One side has reached out for supernatural explanations and has been found wanting when asked for evidence and reasons.