Part 4 - Dinesh D'Souza/ Dan Barker Debates

1. Claiming that energy needs a source is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics.

2. Even if there IS some source, you have no reason whatsoever to assign intelligence, intention, or anything else to it. Let alone relate it to some infantile religious concept.

Whatever caused this entire system (where order is possible), must be a rational entity (there is no assuming here), because order is only intelligible and both a function of rationality itself.

Energy could exist without a cause, but then that would mean that energy is the Prime Mover. But we know that energy was caused, along with every other finite thing that this universe knows at that singularity. And causally "prior" to this, science tells us nothing. Because science itself points to the very beginning of nature here.

Well you stop using words I never used? When did I say it was magic? This is by far the greatest fallacy ever committed by naturalists. The fallacy that mistakens supernaturalists to think that we think we know HOW it happens. As if magic dust went flying around the universe from a big old man with a long beard who blasted the universe with one flick of His index finger. Please lets not talk nonsense. I am not talking about the HOW, I am talking about the WHAT.

I'm not backing off at all. Don't put words into my mouth. You said energy can cause order. I am saying that that's not my question. Obviously there are things that cause others things in the universe to have order. But I am saying what caused this universe in which it is possible for energy to cause order (even though you are mistaking one kind of order for another, I still am trying to show you how that does not change anything).

You are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am saying that if there is a Prime Mover, it is this Prime Mover that ultimately causes order. Energy really wouldn't matter because it wouldn't exist if the Prime Mover didn't exist.

"I don't understand how energy could have been created" does not lead to "it must have been made by a magic intelligence." That's called an argument from ignorance and it's a logical fallacy.

Please read something on these issues. I'm not your teacher.

Now you're trying to back off from "order requires a rational mind" into "what happened before the big bang?"

Firstly, I'm going to point out that you're doing this. I hate when people try to back off a point without conceding it.

Secondly, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT ENERGY WAS CAUSED. That's baseless. If a "prime mover" can exist eternally without cause, then why not energy? You're really trying to claim that you don't understand how energy got here, so it must have been magic. No dice.

*The energy only so in a relative sense, but the energy is caused by something transcendent to the entire system, and causes the entire system.

*if this Prime Mover did not exist

But this Prime Mover causes a universe where B (energy) causes order. Neither energy, or the order in the universe would exist if this Prime Mover existed. Ultimately, it is the Prime Mover that is responsible for this order, not the energy. The energy only so directly. Plus entropy does not account to scientific patters, and the physical laws, those will always be followed. The order you are talking about is where energy is less focused.

If this Prime Mover didn't exist, the universe would not exist with its order.

You still don't understand what I am saying. Energy itself was caused. Energy came into existence at the first singularity. I am asking you the question about the Thing that caused all nature. A causes B, and B causes C, and C causes D, and D causes E. Well, what caused A? When we stop at a necessarily existent entity that was not caused by anything else, we will have known the Prime Mover of all that is in nature, and find the entire explanation to why it has order.

No, I'm talking about the order of systems also. Do you know anything about the Law of Entropy?

Order DOES NOT REQUIRE RATIONALITY. It just requires ENERGY.

This is painfully simple. Read something.

Why Solar SYSTEMS, and why Taxonomy, and Evolution, why all these patterns of order which cannot be read by irrational entities themselves? We as rational entities can read them. Therefore that which caused this entire natural system of order must be rational.

You're speaking of a completely different type of order. What I mean by order, is the order of systems. The entire system of nature, which has laws, and is indeed "organized" in such a way that we can see it so. I am talking about the entire system not just a part. Yes indeed Beavers build dams, and they are not rational. What I am saying here is why is this entire universe consistent with this order.

Energy can also create order. Energy does not require rational thought.

That was easy.

That's not true at all. And I always suspected (myself also) an annoyance among people with the belief that we are assuming something. Order itself is the signature of Reason. Order is not intelligible by irrational animals or nature itself does not read its own order. We, as rational beings do. Therefore what ultimately caused nature, must have been rational. Refute this.

Classic argument from ignorance. "I don't understand how this order could occur, therefore it must have been created by a supernatural intelligence."

In a word, no. There are a number of theories bouncing around about how the universe could have its properties, including multiverse theory. You not "getting it" does not equal god.

Haha good one. You and I are creatures of reason. Nature itself is intelligible in a sort of way. We see that things must exist the way they are in ORDER to do this, and so on and so forth, until we start noticing recurring patterns. We speak as if nature itself were rational: well, it does this for survival (as if the animal, or the plant knew what survival was and how to get there), but recurs throughout that all this order is the signature of a Creative Power, a Mind of Rationality behind it.

If there were no order you'd still be bitching.

What magic man? No one answers a question about life or reasoning, and tries to study something by answering: "THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS!" Thanks. I am observing this universal constancy, this intelligibility that we as humans are all trying to read into. Matter does not order itself.

thats the realm of physics mate, best read a book or go to a lecture.
but sorry to break it to you, your not going to find either ending with "and its all that way because a magic man did it!"

The Universe is intelligible. That which is irrationally caused cannot be intelligible. We notice patterns, and orders, and laws, and systems. Why systems? Why rules? Why laws? Why this commonality? Why this consistency? Why all this order? Why not disorder and complete utter randomness? Why this consistence? Order is the signature of reason, the signature of a Mind.

Yes, of course, how foolish of me! I mean, the fact that D'Souza himself invoked Hitchens is totally insignificant. It couldn't possibly be relevant! CLEARLY, I have no intention other than to promote a book by Christopher Hitchens...

I want to assure you that I have the highest respect for your intelligence and that I do not at all consider you a semi-literate jackass.